Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:03 pm
Fumble fingers wrote:you would think if tone wood didn't make any difference aluminum guitars would be a lot more popular
KenC wrote:Is it a safe assumption that the woods are different between every imported line and its U.S. counterpart? G&L lists "swamp ash" in its specifications for many Tribute instruments. Swamp ash (more properly called "green ash") grows in the eastern half of North America. I hope G&L is shipping that lumber to Indonesia for the Tributes, and not misrepresenting some local wood with a similar grain pattern. Many species of ash and alder are native to Asia, so there could be somewhat locally sourced woods with similar properties. Even if some manufacturers source local lumber for their imports, that wouldn't make it inherently inferior to lumber sourced in North America (or Europe, or where ever). It depends on the species, the conditions it grew under, and how it was handled after harvesting. I'll go out on a limb and guess that it costs no more (and very likely less) to ship African mahogany to Indonesia than to California.
That said, there is definitely low-grade lumber used in some import lines. My local Guitar Center has a Chinese Fender that arrived with a huge area of missing finish, and it's obvious that the "tone wood" is some sort of soft pine. On the other hand, if we cast a wide net to include all import lines we are including things like MIM Fenders (built a couple of hours' drive from the U.S. factory, and using many of the same woods as their U.S. counterparts), and instruments built in Japanese factories that are very highly regarded. I doubt there would be any way to make that damaged Fender at the Guitar Center sound remotely close to decent, but I wouldn't rule out getting good results by swapping out a couple of cheap components on an MIM Fender. Well, at least you could make it sound as good as a U.S. Fender...
KenC wrote:What you're describing here is the same concept that's at the heart of an old-school, subtractive analog synthesizer. You hit a key (or flip a switch, or push a button) and an oscillator turns on. When you release the trigger, the oscillator stops. It's instantaneous, and without further processing it all sounds pretty bad. The solution is running the signal through an ADSR (attack/decay/sustain/release) module, which lets you "swell" into the note and gradually fade it out. Dialing in an extreme value for the attack can make it sound like a "reverse tape" effect on guitar, but at very subtle levels it makes a huge difference in how pleasing the note sounds.
I don't think I could make a graphic representation here, so I'll try to describe what I'm thinking of. It's not that one particular wood could increase the "bloom" of a note or chord. Assume there is some theoretically "wide open" material that gives immediate attack - the instant the string begins to vibrate, the signal out of the guitar or bass is at maximum amplitude. Real woods aren't going to reach that maximum instantaneously. I picture it on a graph as the "wide open" material having a vertical line for the attack, while the real wood has a sloped (increasing) line. The question to me is whether all woods would have the same slope on that graph, and whether the slopes would be identical if they were plotted for different overtones in the note or chord.
I guess another way of putting it would be to say that I think the same thing happens between a guitar or bass and a subtractive synth - just that the synth's attack is shaped by circuitry while the guitar's or bass's is shaped by dampening from the materials.
Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:04 pm
Salmon wrote:Bloodied Fingers,
You have been doing an eloquent job of speaking my mind.
Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:41 am
Mon Jan 27, 2014 9:38 am
y2kc wrote:cporro,
This hippie voodoo leo mojo that some refer to regarding older G&L guitars is bogus. I have played many older G&L's and let me tell you they are highly over rated. Avoid the older stuff and just say no.
If you see a Leo era Asat or S-500 or any of that other stuff, just walk the other way and then contact me and warn me about it. Tell me where I can avoid seeing it.
Be careful out there,
y2kc
Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:12 pm
bloodied_fingers wrote:I don't think G&L is shipping wood to SE Asia. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the big boys ships wood into their overseas shops. At least, not for the price points we see tribute models at. I understood my Legacy Tribute to be made of locally sourced bass wood. If G&L was shipping swamp ash I'd think those models would have a significant upcharge.
bloodied_fingers wrote:Which are going to exceed the $1k in price and then we're not comparing cheap guitars anymore.
bloodied_fingers wrote:My point was I don't think the subtractive affect should be significant soon after energy is put into the system (the plucking energy should dominate)
I might understand how when the string energy gets very low, as at the end of its ringing out period, the dampening of supporting materials takes some affect. That is why I wonder about any effect on sustain. But I think sustain is still, by a wide margin, a function of magnetic pull and bridge material and mass.
bloodied_fingers wrote:good discussion, btw.
Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:11 am
Maybe someone could confirm the source of this swamp ash? My guess is they aren't shipping high-grade swamp ash to Indonesia for manufacturing. I think the wood and shipping for a slab of it the size needed to cut into guitar bodies would cost 1/2 as much as Tributes retail for. Then you have the USA made pickups too? They would be taking a loss.KenC wrote:bloodied_fingers wrote:I don't think G&L is shipping wood to SE Asia. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the big boys ships wood into their overseas shops. At least, not for the price points we see tribute models at. I understood my Legacy Tribute to be made of locally sourced bass wood. If G&L was shipping swamp ash I'd think those models would have a significant upcharge.
According to G&L's website, several Tribute models (including Legacies) use basswood under solid colors and swamp ash under clears and 'bursts. That would be interesting if they were calling an Asian species "swamp ash". As I mentioned before, my guess is that it is at least as cheap (if not cheaper) to get mahogany to the Tribby plants as to Fullerton.
bloodied_fingers wrote:Which are going to exceed the $1k in price and then we're not comparing cheap guitars anymore.
True, but are the woods different from the same manufacturers' lower-priced models? I don't know what the answer to that would be...I haven't done any shopping in that market. I would guess that a lot of the positive comments about upgrading pickups and hardware on imports would relate to the ones with good woods and build qualities.
Two issues here:Personally, I hear the difference in my own pairs of G&Ls (ash vs. mahogany F-100s and L-1Ks, and ash ASAT Bass vs. 'hog L-2KE...where all the other factors have negligible differences) as being a distinct reduction in the higher overtones (or much more fundamental) with the 'hog bodies. Having been a researcher in the past myself, I realize how tiny of a sample that is. I agree that it would be interesting to test this objectively - I'd probably start with a data-logging sound level meter, with a 1/3 octave band analyzer and an obscene sampling rate - but that will have to be another project for another time.
helle-man wrote:...
Haven't you ever picked up a used guitar and immediately started playing differently on it? Same thing.
...
Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:00 pm
Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:17 pm
suave eddie wrote:Ron Kirn, renowned guitar builder has some interesting things to say about blind tests.
http://www.ronkirn.com/quest.htm
Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:29 pm