Will The Real Candy Apple Red Please Step Forward

[FZTNT]

Well now, several of us here on the forum own guitars that are considered to be Candy Apple Red. However, some interesting research has me puzzled as to what this color really looks like. I am talking about Leo era guitars. I have what I understand to be a CAR F-100 from 1981 as well as a 1987 Invader that is extremely close in color so I just assumed it too was CAR.

Does any one have a CAR guitar that they would post some quality pics of? Also, how did you come to determine the color? I would like to find an absolute bonafide Leo era CAR guitar to use as a reference. Also, if anyone has some 1980's catalogs with color charts, that might be useful as well.

I should also note that there is supposedly a color called Candy Apple Red Metallic. I have not seen this in print or on a color chart among the documents in the gallery. So, anyone that has this color guitar please post and let us know how you came to the conclusion that it is CARM.

Thanks a bunch for your help,


Here is my F-100




Tom

[Challenger]

Tom,

Your F-100 looks just like one of mine that is indeed Candy Apple Red. I have a price list dated 1-1-82 that lists the colors available for the F-100. The finishes available without an up charge were: natural ash, natural mahogany, sunburst, black, clear blue, red, white. There were two metallic finishes available for $140 extra: Candy Apple Red and Gold. So, your Candy Apple Red is considered a metallic finish.

I also have a price list from 1-15-85. The finishes listed for the Invader at that time were: Rampage Red, Black, White, and Hot Pink. My guess is your 1987 is Rampage Red.

Chip

[Craig]

Tom,

Your F-100 looks just like one of mine that is indeed Candy Apple Red. I have a price list dated 1-1-82 that lists the colors available for the F-100. The finishes available without an up charge were: natural ash, natural mahogany, sunburst, black, clear blue, red, white. There were two metallic finishes available for $140 extra: Candy Apple Red and Gold. So, your Candy Apple Red is considered a metallic finish.

I also have a price list from 1-15-85. The finishes listed for the Invader at that time were: Rampage Red, Black, White, and Hot Pink. My guess is your 1987 is Rampage Red.

Chip

I agree with Chip.

Here is the September 1, 1985 Price List page we have in the Gallery, showing available colors on the Invader:



Also, check this page from Greg's website showing his 1981 Candy Apple Red F-100: http://www.ggjaguar.com/carf-100.htm.

[KenC]

First, anything was possible with Leo-era G&Ls. I would not rule out off-menu finishes based on a catalog listing alone. If a customer requested it and the materials were available, I doubt Mr. Hyatt would have turned down the order.

I agree that your F-100 looks like CAR. I have owned one Leo-era guitar in CAR (an '88 ASAT). It was a bit darker in person than your F-100 appears in the photo, but it definitely had a hint of metallic under the red topcoat. There were a couple of dings that showed the gold metallic undercoat.

Ken

[FZTNT]

Thanks, I know we have discussed this before but I did not reference Greg's site at the time and that F-100 could easily pass for mine. Even think mine is Maple. Also, due to recent purchases by another member, this topic came up in private conversations so I thought I would bring it up again to see if someone has pics, color swatches or etc. My F-100 does have one small ding so I'll have to dig it out and see if the gold shows through. My red Invader could well be Rampage Red, or a special order CAR. I don't believe it has any dings so the jury is still out on that one until I can take the neck off or something, maybe the control cavity will reveal something too.
It still puzzles me that I have never seen any G&L literature that refers to a Candy Apple Red Metallic finish. But then again I haven't all that much material and I'm sure there is plenty of it out there.

Thanks, but if anyone has more pics of mid eighties CAR guitars please step in and post some pics.

Tom

[Challenger]

I forwarded some of the price lists and ad slicks to Craig to add to the site. I see he got a couple of the 1981 price lists posted that have Candy Apple Red listed as a Metallic Finish with $140 additional price. I'm the 4th owner of my CAR F-100. The 2nd owner was Gabe who registered it as having a maple body. I'm not in a hurry to take the neck off, as the setup is perfect on it and he already registered the dates. There is a spot on mine where the gold is showing through slightly where your right arm rests against the guitar.

This is my 1980 CAR F-100 with the gold showing through on the edge. I was shining a high powered LED flashlight on it and you can see the gold flake underneath when doing that. The LED light makes the guitar look somewhat orange however.



This picture really shows of the gold flake in the lower half.


Chip exposing bare wood that does appear to be maple as recorded by Gabe.


1980 F-100 Candy Apple Red over maple G001890. Body dated 10-17-80, neck dated 10-28-80, invoice date 11-12-80. The CAR seems to take on slightly different shades depending on the light. I know mine is CAR as I have a copy of the production log page with it listed as CAR as noted in the last photo.

[yowhatsshakin]

CAR was still listed on the August 1, 1983 price list as one of the 2 Metallic finishes (the other being Gold), but is no longer explicitly listed in the January 15, 1984 price list:


I gather the addendum "Metallic" to CAR is that is was listed as a Metallic finish in these early price lists.

Rampage Red is much lighter than CAR; just a tad more "Pinkish" than Red (with a Hot Pink for comparison):

(L-to-R) 1987 SC-3 in Hot Pink, 1982 SC-1 w/DFV in Red, 1985 Rampage in Rampage Red, 1986 Invader w/Kahler in CAR.
At least I believe the rightmost is CAR given that I see traces of the Gold undercoat in the neck pocket. But I can be convinced otherwise because it seems to lack the texture I had expected with a CAR finish.

- Jos

[Challenger]

Perhaps the question to address is how is today's CAR poly finish different in appearance than the CAR nitro finish from the early 1980's? I'm guessing the poly red finish is applied and painted differently than the old nitro finishes (aside from the obvious top coat sealer).

[FZTNT]

Perhaps the question to address is how is today's CAR poly finish different in appearance than the CAR nitro finish from the early 1980's? I'm guessing the poly red finish is applied and painted differently than the old nitro finishes (aside from the obvious top coat sealer).

To begin with, I pulled out my Red guitars yesterday and the F-100 is CAR (Metallic) with no doubt. When held in certain light it actually appears to be gold. So that takes care of that. It may not have been an off the shelf color but someone ordered it. The serial number is G003601 if any one has a copy of the book from back then (1980-81).

As for the Red Invader, it's red color is intense. Deep, hints of Burgundy with almost a velvety smooth lustre. But, no signs of any gold or the sheen that the CAR one has. I think that Rampage Red seems to be the darker red of what was available, so I will just call it that.

Jos, you may be off on that CAR invader though. The Rampage is not nearly as dark as my Invader, but I'll leave it up to you as to what you think. Like I said, I wish we could get a bunch of red guitars in the same room and compare in real time under the same light.

There is one interesting thing I have discovered though, and this may address Challenger's question about the difference between today's CAR and that of the Leo era CAR and I maintain they are very similar other than the Nitro finish and the aging.

Yesterday, Craig posted the latest update of G&L inventory. I was looking through the list and while trying to decipher some of the codes, I looked at the bottom of the document where these codes are defined and found a color code of CAR. So at least it appears to still be available. But, even though the code was CAR, the description read Candy Apple Red Metallic. I did a search of the document for the term CAR and it came up with three guitars with a photo. Boy howdy, they sure have a gold sparkle to them even under the shop lights at the G&L setup bench.

Check them out:
CAR Legacy And the CAR S-500


CAR JB Bass


So imagine aging these 30 plus years and you have my F-100. Not the Invader I have and I almost bet it's not what Jos' Invader is either, but it's also completely possible. What I wonder now is what color was Rampage Red back in the eighties cause my (supposed) RR Invader is no where near the color of the Rampage in Jos' post.

The mystery goes on...But I think we have a good idea as to what CAR (metallic) looks like.

Tom

[darwinohm]

A little background if my mind can serve me correctly. A company called House of Kolor, in Minneapolis, came out with candy colors in the 70's I believe and I used some of their products. Their Candy Apple Red was a silver metallic base coat with a clear red over it. That was their version of CAR. The same red used over a metallic gold base was a different red. My Honda Gold Wing was Wineberry which was a wine red over a silver metallic basecoat. These were a 2 part process and the shade of the red would vary depending on how many coats of red were applied. Once you got the color correct you could additionally clear coat for a more durable finish, especially when polyurethane clearcoats became available however I also used Lacquer as a clearcoat into the 90's.

These were difficult colors to get the same from one job to the next. I suspect this could be why we see the variance in CAR. If you can see gold sparkle in the base coat I believe that is not CAR. CAR would have a silver metallic base. I'm not sure sure how G&L did it but I have painted several candy apple projects and they are beautiful. I would not try to repair a spot, as it would be noticeable. I did repaint part of my Gold Wing (Separate Panels) and it was very close, no one else would notice. I'm not sure if this helps anyone but I would expect differences from one guitar to the next as I believe they are hand sprayed at the factory. -- Darwin

[Craig]

A little background if my mind can serve me correctly. A company called House of Kolor, in Minneapolis, came out with candy colors in the 70's I believe and I used some of there products. Their Candy Apple Red was a silver metallic base coat with a clear red over it. That was their version of CAR. The same red used over a metallic gold base was a different red. My Honda Gold Wing was Wineberry which was a wine red over a silver metallic basecoat. These were a 2 part process and the shade of the red would vary depending on how many coats of red were applied. Once you got the color correct you could additionally clear coat for a more durable finish, especially when polyurethane clearcoats became available however I also used Lacquer as a clearcoat into the 90's.

These were difficult colors to get the same from one job to the next. I suspect this could be why we see the variance in CAR. If you can see gold sparkle in the base coat I believe that is not CAR. CAR would have a silver metallic base. I'm not sure sure how G&L did it but I have painted several candy apple projects and they are beautiful. I would not try to repair a spot, as it would be noticeable. I did repaint part of my Gold Wing (Separate Panels) and it was very close, no one else would notice. I'm not sure if this helps anyone but I would expect differences from one guitar to the next as I believe they are hand sprayed at the factory. -- Darwin

See this post, in particular where Fred Finisher mentions that Gold was used as the base for Candy Apple Red and Lemon Yellow.

Hope this helps.

[Craig]

Yesterday, Craig posted the latest update of G&L inventory. I was looking through the list and while trying to decipher some of the codes, I looked at the bottom of the document where these codes are defined and found a color code of CAR. So at least it appears to still be available. But, even though the code was CAR, the description read Candy Apple Red Metallic. I did a search of the document for the term CAR and it came up with three guitars with a photo. Boy howdy, they sure have a gold sparkle to them even under the shop lights at the G&L setup bench.

Check them out:
CAR Legacy And the CAR S-500


CAR JB Bass


So imagine aging these 30 plus years and you have my F-100. Not the Invader I have and I almost bet it's not what Jos' Invader is either, but it's also completely possible. What I wonder now is what color was Rampage Red back in the eighties cause my (supposed) RR Invader is no where near the color of the Rampage in Jos' post.

The mystery goes on...But I think we have a good idea as to what CAR (metallic) looks like.

Tom

We have many more images here, too: Examples of Standard Finishes .... CARM has been a Standard finish for a very long time.

[darwinohm]

Thanks Craig for the Fred Finisher link, he was a great source. In 1992 Honda Goldwing used the candy red clear over a gold metallic base and it was called Candy Spectra Red. I suspect that G&L is using the red over silver base and I wonder how they name it. -- Darwin

[Craig]

Thanks Craig for the Fred Finisher link, he was a great source. In 1992 Honda Goldwing used the candy red clear over a gold metallic base and it was called Candy Spectra Red. I suspect that G&L is using the red over silver base and I wonder how they name it. -- Darwin

You may be right since they don't offer Gold Metallic anymore; it was discontinued in 2009. I have emailed Spencer to find out what base coat they currently use.

Stay tuned.

[darwinohm]

Craig, I just checked my early 2000 CAR Legacy (SN CLF24636). It has the natural binding. Looking closely into the paint edge of the binding I can clearly see the silver base coat. It also looks to have a silver base when looking through the red. I suspect they changed from the Gold base to Silver by that time. -- Darwin

Edit, I hadn't really looked at this Legacy for some time. I had forgotten how beautiful it is. It is pristine like the day it was built with the neck aging in color.

[Craig]

Thanks Craig for the Fred Finisher link, he was a great source. In 1992 Honda Goldwing used the candy red clear over a gold metallic base and it was called Candy Spectra Red. I suspect that G&L is using the red over silver base and I wonder how they name it. -- Darwin

You may be right since they don't offer Gold Metallic anymore; it was discontinued in 2009. I have emailed Spencer to find out what base coat they currently use.

Stay tuned.

Just heard back from Spencer:

Hi Craig,

We use either silver or gold depending on what other colors are being shot that day. The trans-red dominates the yellow in the gold so there is no difference in the appearance between the two.

Spencer

BTW, I had forgotten about the Yukon Gold Metallic finish which is one of the base colors they now use for Candy Apple Red Metallic. The other being Silver Metallic.

Hope this helps.