Strange Pedal Board Issue

[suave eddie]

Hi all
I'm not really much of a pedal guy--I usually prefer to plug straight into the amp. I bought a Green Screamer a couple years ago, and within the last year finally replaced my 30 year old Korg casset tape sized tuner with a Boss TU-3. A while back, I thought I was going to be getting into an actual band situation (didn't pan out yet) so I thought I would make a simple pedal board--I also have an old Boss TR-2 Tremolo pedal. I didn't want to spend a lot and did it pretty much on the cheap. I notice when I plug it in, there is a sound in the background that I can only describe as an oscillating "swooshing" sound. It didn't take long to isolate it to the tremolo pedal, as the swooshing sound changes in rate with the dial on the pedal, and the sound disappears when the tremolo is removed from the chain--this noise is present with ALL pedals in the OFF position. Further trouble isolation reveals that when I put a battery in the unit and disconnect the AC source, the noise goes away. If I eliminate the power daisy chain and plug the AC directly into the tremolo all by itself there is no noise. Has anyone experienced this before? What could be causing this?

[KenC]

Have you checked the power supply's rating to be sure it's providing the correct amperage? I don't own a multi-pedal power supply, but I've been looking into them. I just read a warning on Moog's website that Moogerfoogers (which are very sensitive to low amperage) generally won't work with daisy-chain power supplies, as there's too much or a loss when multiple pedals are connected. Just a thought...

Also, I understand that Boss pedals have special requirements for power supplies. I have no idea about the details, as I only own one Boss product (an Auto Wah) and have only run it on a battery. Could it be a matter of incompatibility between the power supply and the Boss requirements?

Ken

[suave eddie]

The current draw is 20 mA, the TU-3 tuner is 30 mA, and the Green Screamer is 200 mA. It looks like the power supply is putting out 2A. Of course the instructions say to use only the specified power supply.

[louis cyfer]

that is why i avoid unmodded boss pedals. you need a power supply with isolated outputs, not a daisy chain. the boss pedals are not true bypass. they are sucking your tone even when off. the buffer in there is prett bad quality, when adding several together, you get all kinds of issues.

[suave eddie]

I tried another experiment. The tuner has an "in" and and an "out" jack intended for daising chaining power. I originally plugged the power into the tuner first and then took the other power leads from the "out" jack. I now have the power from the transformer going first directly into the tremolo, and then to all the others utilizing the pigtail provided. The noise now is almost non-existent. With the volume turned way up and you really listen for it you can barely hear it. As far as the true-bypass issue, I don't really notice my actual tone changing at all. I don't think they had true bypass in Hendrix's day and I kind of like Jimi's tone. Some people claim to hear nuances that escape me. Like I said I rarely use pedals. Even if I get into a band situation, the most important pedal is the tuner, and then perhaps the Screamer, which most of the time I use as a clear boost with the gain all the way down and the level all the way up. If I'm in a situation where I can use my Mesa Subway at a real volume I get enough gain not to need any pedals.

[louis cyfer]

I tried another experiment. The tuner has an "in" and and an "out" jack intended for daising chaining power. I originally plugged the power into the tuner first and then took the other power leads from the "out" jack. I now have the power from the transformer going first directly into the tremolo, and then to all the others utilizing the pigtail provided. The noise now is almost non-existent. With the volume turned way up and you really listen for it you can barely hear it. As far as the true-bypass issue, I don't really notice my actual tone changing at all. I don't think they had true bypass in Hendrix's day and I kind of like Jimi's tone. Some people claim to hear nuances that escape me. Like I said I rarely use pedals. Even if I get into a band situation, the most important pedal is the tuner, and then perhaps the Screamer, which most of the time I use as a clear boost with the gain all the way down and the level all the way up. If I'm in a situation where I can use my Mesa Subway at a real volume I get enough gain not to need any pedals.

actually they mostly had true bypass pedals in hendrix's day.

[suave eddie]

Well ya' learn something new every day. I thought the "true bypass" thing was a relatively recent phenomenon. My experience with pedals is very limited. Other than an old original Crybaby GCB-95 I bought close to 30 years ago, I haven't acquired a pedal until the Green Screamer recently.

[louis cyfer]

Well ya' learn something new every day. I thought the "true bypass" thing was a relatively recent phenomenon. My experience with pedals is very limited. Other than an old original Crybaby GCB-95 I bought close to 30 years ago, I haven't acquired a pedal until the Green Screamer recently.

not at all. true bypass is actually simpler. a lot of pedals have always been true bypass. boss wanted to use cheap momentary switches for their pedals. i am sure someone here can explain this accurately.

[sirmyghin]

Suave, often tuners on daisy chains can cause some noise, maybe try to remove that? Otherwise the whole daisy chain thing, as mentioned by Louis, can be hit or miss depending on pedals in the lines.

As far as true bypass goes, a quality buffer >> True bypass and most modern pedals are pretty solid. The only one I have that causes issues is the Whammy IV, that one attenuates treble highly.

[louis cyfer]

Suave, often tuners on daisy chains can cause some noise, maybe try to remove that? Otherwise the whole daisy chain thing, as mentioned by Louis, can be hit or miss depending on pedals in the lines.

As far as true bypass goes, a quality buffer >> True bypass and most modern pedals are pretty solid. The only one I have that causes issues is the Whammy IV, that one attenuates treble highly.

quality buffer yes. like durham electronics. boss, no. and mixing several different buffers on top of each other can cause issues as well, even when the individual buffer is good. as far as most modrn pedals being solid, take digitech, boss, ibanez and a few more garden variety stuff out of that equation.

[sirmyghin]

Suave, often tuners on daisy chains can cause some noise, maybe try to remove that? Otherwise the whole daisy chain thing, as mentioned by Louis, can be hit or miss depending on pedals in the lines.

As far as true bypass goes, a quality buffer >> True bypass and most modern pedals are pretty solid. The only one I have that causes issues is the Whammy IV, that one attenuates treble highly.

quality buffer yes. like durham electronics. boss, no. and mixing several different buffers on top of each other can cause issues as well, even when the individual buffer is good. as far as most modrn pedals being solid, take digitech, boss, ibanez and a few more garden variety stuff out of that equation.

Ibanez I don't typically touch, but digitech, in their hardwire line at least, are actually quite nice and solid, quiet, and operate very well TOGETHER. I realize you tend to gravitate towards the boo-teek effects, and I am not one to talk as the most common name on my pedal board is Strymon, but the mass market pedals are by no means poor quality. Hell they are what most pros use, and last I checked they are the ones making the big bucks on stage, not us guys. They also have one big advantage, replacability if need be. Walk into any store and you are saved! Us studio warriors might not mind dropping 300$ on a pedal, but it is hardly necessary to get quality.

Most buffer circuits are great nowadays, it isn't the 70s anymore. For example my Morley BH2 dead quite and indistinguishable whether in line or not, also gives the extra drive to get through my OD, comp, and TB loop outside the whammy for the front end. I typically run the strymon modulation pedals (BSR and El Cap) in trails mode (aka buffer bypass) and they are always crystal clear.

The only complaints I have heard or had typically is the GE-7 gets noisy if you boost too many frequencies. That is somewhat of an issue, but EQ's aren't boosts. The electronic switch may give out a little sooner than a good TPDT, but they are used happily and reliably by a great many. Industry standard is in place for a reason after all. If it does what you need it to, it is a good pedal, period.

[suave eddie]

Update on my old post re: issue with tremolo pedal bleeding through even while turned off.

I haven't used the pedal board for quite some time until recently--we are working on a project to play a set at an annual Summer Solstice party at a friend's house. I go to a rehearsal and plug in the pedals and sure enough I hear the swoosh-swoosh sound of the tremolo pedal in the off position. I bypass the pedal--remove it from the chain and continue rehearsing.

When I get home I look at the board again and decide to try something that for some reason I never thought of before--I change the order of the pedals so that now it goes Tremolo>Tuner>Green Screamer--basically switched the Tremolo from the end of the chain to the beginning.

Well, I still don't have any idea what caused the initial problem, but now it is eliminated.

I am a moron for not even thinking of this until now!

[KenC]

Well, I still don't have any idea what caused the initial problem, but now it is eliminated.

I'm not familiar with the wiring methods Boss used, but I'd guess that the low frequency oscillator (LFO) is running anytime the pedal has power (at least on the AC adapter). The signal coming out of the Green Screamer is probably much hotter than a typical instrument-level signal coming from a guitar, and might have been interacting with the oscillator in the tremolo. IT was enough to make a sweep that's always there in the background get strong enough to reach your amp. Just a semi-educated guess...

I've noticed something similar with one of my Moogerfoogers. When I set the LFO to a sawtooth wave, there is an audible clicking at the wave's peak when I have the input drive turned up - even when I don't have a signal going into the pedal.

Ken

[suave eddie]

The signal coming out of the Green Screamer is probably much hotter than a typical instrument-level signal coming from a guitar, and might have been interacting with the oscillator in the tremolo. IT was enough to make a sweep that's always there in the background get strong enough to reach your amp. Just a semi-educated guess...

The oscillation was present even with ALL of the pedals, including the Screamer in the off position.........would the signal coming out of the Screamer be affected at all when it is off?

Anyway--strange problem, now fixed.
Thanks to all for reading my ramblings and for any input provided.